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A comment on Critic Raises Questions over Crash and Death Rates of Cirrus Aircraft In “Dead Pilots Don’t Lie”--Surprising Fatality Safety Analysis of Cirrus “Parachute” Planes vs. Cessna Small Planes

Paul Platt — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:05:37 GMT

Rick,

I guess no one will be happy until Cirrus is put under and the only planes available are 40 year old planes covered under GARA. The Hill City award proves that. That award alone will add something like $30K per plane if covered by one year of sales. I use that case as an example of poor decision making when I teach a class on critical decision making for pilots. The thing people can't get through there heads is that the statistics are that Cirrus is like any other high performance single when it comes to safety stats. I wish it was better but it isn't. It is not as safe as a trainer like a 172. However, it isn't statistically worse than a Bonanza or a Mooney or a C210 either. Maybe it is the math major in me that gets annoyed at headlines rather than hard data driving what people perceive as "facts." This is a plane that is being flown on a LOT of long missions with the resulting accident rate. If a plane is flown more on more challenging missions then there are more accidents.

A comment on Critic Raises Questions over Crash and Death Rates of Cirrus Aircraft In “Dead Pilots Don’t Lie”--Surprising Fatality Safety Analysis of Cirrus “Parachute” Planes vs. Cessna Small Planes

Rick Shapiro — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 23:25:59 GMT

Bruce: I sent you a private comment and my condolences. I tried to author this post in a fair way to Cirrus, as I respect their efforts to build and sell a safe airplane with a parachute. I am sure the company is paying close attention to the comments on this article too. However, the rate of pilot deaths is the clarion call to Cirrus to improve training and safety of this airplane. Cirrus should immediately brainstorm methods to re-think pilot training and build in some type incentive for new or used purchasers to have flight simulation and/or special training. You can build a great aircraft but you can not run from the death stats per hour flown either.

A comment on Critic Raises Questions over Crash and Death Rates of Cirrus Aircraft In “Dead Pilots Don’t Lie”--Surprising Fatality Safety Analysis of Cirrus “Parachute” Planes vs. Cessna Small Planes

Paul Platt — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:58:25 GMT

Bruce,

The SR22 WILL recover form a spin and this was demonstrated for European certification. Since the chute was being included anyway, the SR22 was certified in the US using ELOS (equivalent level of safety) provision. The SR22 is indeed quick in pitch but I guess how you feel about that is a personal thing. I find it great for VFR fun flying but IFR off the autopilot requires careful trimming. I agree that most Cirrus pilots are heavy autopilot users. Every Cirrus has an autopilot that is great compared to what was available pre-1998 in most planes.

I am sorry about the loss of your brother but spin recovery is a non issue in such a low level accident. Relative to landing accidents, the SR22 is heavier than a 172 trainer (3400 lbs. vs. 2450) and the stall speed is higher (60 vs. 40 kts). If the planes are at max gross weight then the SR22 is carrying 3.12 times the kinetic energy. That is a huge difference and must be respected. The use of steering by differential braking is also a factor. I'm not saying there aren't other factors. I am saying that it is easier to lose control of a heavy, fast plane be it SR22, Bonanza or some other. Since you fly a tail dragger, you are well aware that different skills are needed for different planes. Porpoising in the SR22 due to carrying excess speed over the threshold can require adjustment to handle if transitioning from something like a 172. Otherwise PIO can result. Again, this is a similar issue to ones found on other planes of this weight-speed class and not Cirrus specific.

A comment on Critic Raises Questions over Crash and Death Rates of Cirrus Aircraft In “Dead Pilots Don’t Lie”--Surprising Fatality Safety Analysis of Cirrus “Parachute” Planes vs. Cessna Small Planes

Bruce Case — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 23:40:21 GMT

My brother was just killed while flying his Cirrus during what appeared to be a relatively normal landing at Crystal airport in Minneapolis. (June 16, 2009) While relatively low time he had completed significant and recent flight training in the airplane. The point that most people seem to miss about the Cirrus is that the parachute was deemed necessary by the FAA during the certfication process because the airplane won't recover from a spin. They turned a vice into a marketing feature. I fly tail draggers and have flown a Cirrus and find it to be a very twitchy airplane especially in terms of pitch sensitivity. Most Cirrus pilots turn on the autopilot as soon as possible because of the airplanes flight charactistics. We may never know exactly the cause of my brothers death but I have always felt the airplane has marginal flight characteristics.

A comment on Critic Raises Questions over Crash and Death Rates of Cirrus Aircraft In “Dead Pilots Don’t Lie”--Surprising Fatality Safety Analysis of Cirrus “Parachute” Planes vs. Cessna Small Planes

Chuck C — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:02:56 GMT

I'm very sorry for the loss of your friend.
I am a flight instructor who is trained to instruct in Cirrus aircraft and many others. I see many types of pilots in the course of a year. Good weather only pilots ( VFR) all weather pilots (IFR) and I have a problem with our general aviation system which I feel needs a change. Profesionally flown aircraft for hire (FAR 121 or 135) are required to be flight and knowledge checked every six months. The general aviation pilots, including the all weather pilots, are not required to have a flight check but every two years. With the changes in tech. and regs every year this accident rate will continue or increase. These pilots are up in the poor weather with the airline pilots with no recurrent checks, that is wrong. The amount of time a pilot has does not reflect his ablity to handle issues unless the pilot has a continuing education and flight check as the pro's do. I would like to see at least a annual flight check for all weather ( IFR ) pilots to practice emergencies in poor weather. Flying in low visability and low overcasts in rain is not like riding a bike, it must be practiced and practiced in good weather.
The pro's fly many days a week, many days in low weather, the general aviation pilot may fly in low weather a few times a year. It takes a much higher skill set to fly in poor weather and work a problem at the same time.
I see this first hand every week.
The figures need to be put into perspective with type of weather being flown. That fact can be a challenge.

A comment on Critic Raises Questions over Crash and Death Rates of Cirrus Aircraft In “Dead Pilots Don’t Lie”--Surprising Fatality Safety Analysis of Cirrus “Parachute” Planes vs. Cessna Small Planes

Rick Shapiro — Fri, 29 May 2009 21:20:37 GMT

Matt:
Thanks for your opinions..I saw the preliminary report and the NTSB has not stated anything material to the cause yet.
Rick

A comment on Critic Raises Questions over Crash and Death Rates of Cirrus Aircraft In “Dead Pilots Don’t Lie”--Surprising Fatality Safety Analysis of Cirrus “Parachute” Planes vs. Cessna Small Planes

Matt — Fri, 22 May 2009 09:45:46 GMT

Weather conditions at CGF taken at 1616 were: Wind 080 degrees at 8 knots; visibility 4 miles in light rain and mist; overcast clouds at 200 feet agl; temperature 7 degrees Celsius; dew point 6 degrees Celsius; and altimeter 30.38 inches of mercury.

These conditions severely limit options in the event that anything goes wrong. Single engine operations for an amateur pilot into 200' overcast is taking a huge chance. PIC Doran had to have known the risk he was taking. Unfortunately, Shnirel became part of the tragedy and he probably wasn't in a position to question the judgement of his boss. I would think that Shnirel's family has a lot of potential with a wrongful death case against Doran's estate. Ironic

A comment on Obama Acts To Restore State Civil Justice Laws, Reducing Federal Agency Controls

Mike Bryant — Wed, 20 May 2009 22:21:17 GMT

this is great news for the consumer.

A comment on Obama Acts To Restore State Civil Justice Laws, Reducing Federal Agency Controls

Gabrielle D'Alemberte — Wed, 20 May 2009 20:27:21 GMT

It was less than a year ago that "Bush administration officials, in their last weeks in office, are pushing to rewrite a wide array of federal rules with changes or additions that could block product-safety lawsuits by consumers and states" (Link atMore ... ). Thank goodness for change!

A comment on Critic Raises Questions over Crash and Death Rates of Cirrus Aircraft In “Dead Pilots Don’t Lie”--Surprising Fatality Safety Analysis of Cirrus “Parachute” Planes vs. Cessna Small Planes

Paul — Sun, 10 May 2009 01:27:50 GMT

According to the book "The Killing Zone - Why Pilots Die" the first 50 hours of a pilot's flying career are the safest. He is almost always with an instructor in closely supervised training. The number one aircraft used for such training is the Cessna 172. The statistics you cite include the 172 and hence the data is very distorted. Admittedly the 182 is one of the safest non-trainer aircraft in all of general aviation. Even Cirrus' own website, More ... , shows it to have better safety statistics in terms of fatal accidents as a percentage of fleet size. However, the planes closest to the Cirrus, the Beech 36 and Cessna 350/400, don't fair as well. Safety tracks surprising well with cruise speed and stall speed. I find it disappointing that the Cirrus safety record isn't dramatically better than the rest of GA. However, it is unfair to then demonize Cirrus when their record is no worse than the GA average either.